Congratulations to Trevor Hoffman.
Trevor Hoffman, Hall of Famer?
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by archivedposts on June 18, 2007
Congratulations to Trevor Hoffman.
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{ 16 comments… read them below or add one }
I’ve always thought personally that the 8th inning is far more important for building back momentum (for a team that is currently losing) or for putting the game away (for a team that is currently winning). Of course, you occasionally get the 9th-inning rally but it just seems that more things happen in the 8th.
20.5%: can you limit that to relievers?
Tango, already did. That 20.5% figure is only among those who appeared in relief for the game. I double checked it and it’s accurate.
I really don’t understand what the numbers mean. Just because “momentum” is up 1% in the 8th inning than the 9th inning, doesn’t mean that every game played will have the same scenario.
The thing is we have modern day closers, and the saves are more of a modern statistics as opposed to the closers of old (ie Gossage). In another 10-20 years, the “modern” closers’ “HOF-Save-plataeu” will be revealed a little more clearly (as in 3,000 hits, 500 HRs). 500 Saves is impressive in the sense that closers seem to come and go nowadays. Many teams are having problems finding consistant closers.
While yes, I understand your point of view on the subject, I feel this is just one of those things in baseball that people are going to wind up having to adjust to.
I think the idea that “HOLDS” are now an official stat are kind of silly. Especially since when a HOLD is blown, a pitcher receives a BS, not a Blown Hold on their record. If a setup man becomes a closer, his career statistics are going to be flawed.
I agree, and I’m a huge Padre and Trevor fan. But you really can’t argue with it anymore. The selection committee knew the controversy would start when they finally decided to induct Bruce Sutter, which opened the door for Rollie Fingers, and gave hope to Goose Gossage, Lee Smith, Dave Righetti, and Mariano Rivera, among others. Don Sutton, a good starting pitcher, is in based on wins, which itself was based in large part on his longevity. The selection committee is of course anxious about setting precedents and thus opening the excusive door too wide too quickly. But even though the Bruce Sutter induction pretty much ensures that Trevor Hoffman and the others mentioned above will get in, I still think it’s a stretch.
PC: That 20.5% figure is very surprising. But does it include relievers on both teams in that game? It’s hard to imagine that in 80% of save games, another reliever on the same team had more WPA than the closer. Among the current top 50 WPA pitchers, 16 are closers, and many others recorded some of their WPA in games they saved. Where is all this other WPA going? There is more WPA going to non-closers than I might have guessed, but still I find the 20.5% figure very surprising.
Guy, it surprised the heck out of me too. To answer your question, I only looked at one team at a time. So, each team in a game had a reliever (assuming that they used one) who got a “most WPA added” award (or at least a least WPA subtracted!) So, the “savior” is only competing against players on his own team.
Also, looking through the top 50 in WPA (I assume we’re looking at the same fangraphs chart), shows a bunch of guys who have 0 or 1 game started, but who are also not their team’s primary closer. (Some are guys who have been setup guys but became closers, e.g. Alan Embree). In the top 15 or so, I see R. Soriano, Betancourt, and Okajima.
A few thoughts occur to me on why this might be happening: Closers are generally more consistent than their middle relieving brethren (hence, I believe why they got the ninth inning gig). “Saviors” added an average of .077 wins during their time on the mound with a SD of .068. All other relivers added an average of -.008 wins (so they basically broke even), but with an SD of .151 wins. Since starters now usually go 6 innings, the closer generally gets a chance at a save when the guys in front of him (pitching in some high leverage 7th and 8th inning situations) do their job (i.e. preserve the lead, hopefully involving some positive WPA). So, it’s not surprising that the guys who had those assignments rack up some good WPA points in front of the closer.
Closers generally do positive things consistently, so they build up the WPA, while the middle relievers are less reliable, so while one game, they build up the WPA, the next game, they give it all back. It’s a theory.
I don’t see how this adds up. In a typical save game, you’re saying the closer gets .077. Reliever #2 beats him (80% of the time), so let’s call that .09. Yet all non-closers average -.008. So that means all other relievers in the game — if there are any — have to be terrible on average (about -.1), and this is in games their team won. I guess it’s possible, but seems unlikely.
Ah, a small mistake in my methodology from my previous comment. -.008 is the average for all relievers for both teams, except the guy who recorded the save. That would be why they all break even. I restricted it just to relievers from the winning team (i.e., the team that got the save). The closer numbers are the same, but the average reliever on the winning team in a game where a save was recorded, but he did not record that save added .047 wins on average, but with a standard deviation of .132. So, we’d need to know how many scores in that distrbution fall above .077. In that distribution, .077 has a z-score of +.22. That means of all the relievers WPA scores, 42% of scores will fall above .077 on a pitcher-by-pitcher basis. If a team uses two relievers to get to the closer, odds are roughly 66% that one of them will outscore the closer. If they use more than two, those odds go up.
Just for fun, I checked Hoffman’s 19 save games this season. He had the highest WPA in 9 of them, or 47%. Lower than I would have guessed, but also 3 SDs above .20 even w/ such a small sample. And Izzy is around 38%.
Actually, you need to compare the two distributions — all closers are not .077 in every game. Also, the more relievers in a given game the fewer IP for each, and so lower WPA on average. I’m not sure how this all nets out, but .40 looks a lot more realistic than .20.
Still a surprising result, I think. The main contributors, in addition to your observation that 8th inning LI is often quite high, look to be:
1) 3-run saves are really very low LI;
2) 1- and 2-out saves don’t generate much WPA, even if LI reasonably high;
3) another reliever often goes 2 IP, a big edge even if his LI is a bit lower.
Another interesting piece of information that might help to explain a few things. I looked at the skew of the distributions for saviors and non-saviors on the winning teams. Those distributions are skewed in opposite directions. The non-saviors have a distribution that is negatively skewed (skew stat = -854… not bad, but still negative), meaning that the mean is probably brought down by a few extremely negative cases (poor outings with a large negative WPA). The closers’ distribution is positively skewed (1.907), meaning that their mean is influenced in an upward direction by a few very impressive (that is, high WPA) saves. In reality, there are more saves on the “cheaper” side of the graph than there are on the good side of the graph.
It means that there are a lot of cheaper saves, which would be easy to overtake by a middle reliever, esp one that pitches 2 innings or in a much more crucial 8th inning situation as Guy suggests.
didnt feel like reading all the comments, so someone might have said this already….
the win expectancy numbers have to be skewed so that there are fewer “swings of fate” in the 9th inning, because the best pitcher pitches that inning, preserving the win. if the best pitcher pitched the 8th inning for the last 30 years, then the win expectancy numbers would be different for everyone. someone who is smarter than I am can extrapolate on that thought, im not in the mood to think right now
Dan, what you’re describing is something that I alluded in the last paragraph of the original post, before the update. The guy who pitches the eighth inning might make a higher leverage situation for himself by not being as good as the closer and allowing for some runners. He might also give up the lead a few more times, which as you point out would, over repeated instances, affect both the calculations of win expectancy and leverage.
A fascinating idea! Our very conceptualization of win expectancy (and everything following from it) as derived empirically is itself the product of the very usage pattern which I am studying. It would be interesting to see whether more leads are surrendered in the eighth or ninth inning (an empirical question). The closer is probably a better pitcher, but he is also more likely to face a pinch hitter or two, so there might be something that balances it out. There are also guys who pitch the eighth inning on some teams that would close on others, and vice versa. But, either way, there’s quite a bit of merit to what you say. I have a six hour drive ahead of me tomorrow. Perhaps I will spend some of it thinking. (Perhaps I should spend some of it talking to my wife… nah…)
I did do some thinking on the subject. Tango has advocated the use of context neutral wins (WPA/LI) added as a way to calculate clutch. When I get back to my laptop, I’ll take a look to see which relievers are adding the most context neutral wins.
I used total context neutral wins (WPA/LI on an AB-by-AB basis) in a game, in games where a save was recorded. This eliminates some of the bias that Dan brought up in #13, by telling what the change in win probability would have been (roughly) if this were an “average” event in the game. How often was it the case that the man who recorded the save was also the man who recorded the most context-neutral WPA for the game? 22.3%.